Ecological destruction, violation of the right to live, the crisis of being unable to govern.. The world faces a period in which totalitarian regimes seek to sustain themselves and by contrast, social movements come to existence and system is unable to update itself. Middle East, while standing in the center of the crisis, opens the path for the societies to build a new life as well. We made an inquiry with Başkaya, as a pioneer to the critical thought and one of the few system analysts in the region, on the status of capitalist modernity, the politics of totalitarian regimes, ecological destruction and the social movements in which the societies all around the world find themselves. 

 

All indicators of the global system gives the red signal to which you often refer. Capitalist modernity presses in upon its interior and exterior borders. How is the status of the system? 

 

Capitalist global system is unable to produce enough value today. It is having a hard time producing surplus value. To say the other way around, the capital faces the problem of valuation without which it will be de-valuated. That means either finance taking refuge, or commoditization of living creatures to postpone the decadency. This is the reason of such deepening of the destruction of nature. Look at what happens in Turkey to understand the magnitude of the destruction of nature. Capital, which cannot be ‘valuated’ in the most traditional ways, find a new aim at ‘Mass Projects’. You know, these mass projects (which are rather called mega projects) are only available through plundering and the depredation of the budget, the treasure, the communal (that belong to everyone) and the organic nature. This is not a status of sustainable kind. Well then, why is this the way it is? Because global capitalist system have reached its interior and exterior borderlines. It is spinning around… And there is no way out within the capitalist logic. The point in question is a crisis of civilization. 

 

Capitalism reaches to its interior borders because of its basic inclinations, dynamics and laws of its movement. On the aspect of ecological problem, it is now beyond the interior limits. This is no longer sustainable. In contrast to the resources of the earth being limited, capitalism has an unlimited inclination and dynamics of growth, expansion and enumeration. That is why it is unable to restrict itself. Therefore, it hits the wall. Nowadays, what they call a day as “Earth Overshoot Day” addresses to this conflict. You know, Overshoot Day defines in how much time humanity consumes the new resources that the nature has produced in a year. Earth Overshoot Day drew back as early as July 29 last year which means that we owe these five months. However, Turkey has forged ahead on this matter; our Overshoot Day was on June 27. Therefore, our debt to earth is one month bigger… The real problem is the ‘inconsistency’ between the speed of the nature to renew itself and the reproduction speed of capitalism. That is the conflict underlying the problems. Such a world, on which the individuals are in debt, families are in debt, corporations are in debt, municipalities are in debt, states are in debt. Moreover, they owe this debt to the ‘nature’.  

 

Totalitarian regimes all around the globe is in a jam. The more system is unable to solve the problems, the more it increases the oppression. And the state, applies the instrumentalisation of terror. In short, humanity and the civilization is on a crossroad because of capitalist functioning.  As the system takes one more step forward, the damage given to the nature increases. That is the reason why climate crisis and the ecological destruction threatens the future of the civilization. 

 

Climate crisis is on the agenda of the societies of the world as well of the capitalists. Each side discusses this issue within their own perspective. From which perspective should we evaluate the climate crisis? 

 

Everybody talks about the climate crisis, but somehow nobody want to talk about capitalism. If there is an ecological destruction, then what is the root cause behind this? Who is the main responsible? Personally, I support the idea that one should call this an ecological destruction, rather than an ecological crisis. It is inevitable that, crisis rather refers to a deviation from the normal status, that is the state of balance, but that is why it connotates ‘a way back to the normal’. Can you replace the icebergs, which are gone? Can you bring back the biological diversity, the extinct living creatures? Can you make the rivers in drought flow? Can you bring back the extinct bees?  

 

Climate crisis is obviously of great importance, it has vital results, but it is only a part of the ecological destruction. The matter should be handled and discussed as a whole.  When there is still time, the root cause should be focused immediately, which is the capitalism. That comes with an implication that there is no alternative within capitalism. The earth, the water and the air pollution is on increase. Production of food is in trouble as the salt levels in the sees and the oceans increase, so they warm up and the levels of water increase and the fish are dying. As drylands expands, fires are destroying millions of hectares of forests. Floods, whirlwinds and storms not only increase by number, but also by intensity. One of my books is titled as “A World Went Off The Rails” and this title is not coincidental. There is only one root cause to the madness and destruction: capitalism. Let me tell you this. For example, a random college student in economics in USA may get a bachelor’s degree without ever hearing the concept of capitalism, even a doctoral degree. Why is that? So that the system error would not be exposed.  People live in a capitalist society, having yet no idea about capitalism. And if you notice, the alternative is still asked from the ones on governance. Is it not absurd to ask the solution from the problem-creators?  Letters are being sent to the wrong address. 

 

The bushfires in Australia have come in the global agenda after three months. Now the floods and storms… At first glance, climate crisis, drought and fires were linked together. However, we know that the coal usage in the continent and emission of rock gas as well as the increase of cultivated areas are the reasons of this outcome… 

 

This is a carelessness on a general level. Economic growth becomes the ground for legitimization and acceptance. Economic growth within the capitalism only means the growth of the capital and it is never able to produce general welfare. And there is this fetishism of technology. A scientific-technologic development which is only triggered by the ambition of profit; then we should ask for whom, why and how the economy grows? Who are the leading powers behind this magnificent technology? And of whose service is it? Is technology really being used for the sake of the public? 

 

Nowadays, all kind of energies like ‘green energy’, ‘clean energy’, ‘alternative energy’ are popular. Of course, we should seek for the alternative energy sources, which do no cause the destruction of nature. However, how is this possible? How is clean energy possible without touching the barons of fossil fuel energy? For decades, sustainability has been discussed, but each day a status of unsustainability deepens. Does that not sound wrong? Alternative energy on use constitutes only 17,5& of the total energy consumption. When there is still time, two things shall be done: The direction of production should be changed towards the needs of people, rather than the profit and ending the exceed production by reducing the level of consumption as well. In order to cut down the consumption, first the production side of this cycle shall be controlled for as much as the exceed consumption and production  goes on, it is inevitable to pollute. And capitalists never consider the damage of the production to the nature for the sake of profit levels. 

 

Is Australia a big warning for the humanity? 

 

For sure. These fires happen in Amazons and in Siberia. The winter days of 30 degree in Norway is also signal. When it rains, people begin get anxious, because in all rainfalls, new problems come alive. Recent rainfalls in Mersin, Antalya, Rize caused a lot of trouble. Besides, this is just the beginning. Bushifres in Australia is totally a disaster. As you referred, a big warning for the humanity. 

 

All around the world people are rising and in all corners of Turkey, complaints arise. The paid-killers of huge capitalist monopolies continues to kill ecology activists. Ecological struggle has around a 70-years-old history, but it had a principal Achilles heel. They have thought this crisis could have an alternative within capitalism. Capitalism is not a radical problem for them.  What have done the green parties in Europe? In the end, they all surrendered to capitalism. The chance of success for ecological movements depend on their being “anti-capitalist”, not “eco-capitalist”. To say the other way around, they need to be eco-socialist. I hope that ecological movement will come to that line, this way or that way.  

 

When we say that ecological destruction can be prevented within the scope of capitalism, means that capitalism can and may be reformed, tamed and humanized. However, this is not the case and has never been. All modes of production, all social formations, and all civilizations have its own logic of operation. When stepped out of this logic, the system loses its capacity to become a system. Could slavery be tamed? Could feudalism be tamed? This was not possible.  

 

There is a crisis of being unable to govern on global scale. Syria, Iran, Iraq… And there is the crisis of Libya and Mediterranean. What is the role of nation-states in the face of these matters? 

 

Nation-state is something specific to capitalism, it arose with it. They are at the same age. Now capitalism is skidding, it has difficulty in reproducing itselfand of course the bourgeois state is becoming dysfunctional. It was born with capitalism and will die with it. As it is known, the capitalist state has three functions: 1- To provide services that are not available in a suitable and 'adequate' manner by capital (private sector); 2- To file the "excesses" of some capitalists or capital groups, which can be called protecting capitalism from capitalists. 3- To protect the rich from the poor. Now the state has become alienated by its first two functions. And this means a crisis of legitimacy, the capitalist state is now trying to rule only on the basis of pressure, violence, state terror, but this road has no end.

 

The continuation of the flow of wealth is possible by preventing the people living there from using their own resources for their own well-being and development. What is the reason for the "mounting" of the Zionist Israel? Isn't it to prevent the peoples there from standing on their own feet? 

  

Of course, there is a congestion now and energy resources, indispensable mines for capitalism are decreasing and becoming scarce. This is the reason why the region was turned into a swamp. They make allegations like "We are fighting terrorism!" Well, isn't the actual terrorism the state terrorism? It's themselves who use terrorism? In fact, what is happening today in the Middle-East shows of what will happen elsewhere.

  

 

Against all these problems we talked about, mass movements started to emerge in many countries of the world. An increase has been observed especially in the last few years. How do you see the opposition in the world, do these movements need common and global unity?

 

 

Capitalism is a world system. If it is a world system, the struggle against it should also be carried out on a global scale. Seeing that the attack is against the 'Great Humanity' and environment..The anti-capitalist struggle must necessarily have an international character, but this is only possible if a radical leap of consciousness and the necessity of the struggle in the universal plan are believed. In fact, capitalism has nothing to offer to "Great Humanity." People are revolting in almost all of the world and the real reason for these revolts is not limited to their demands. Here are carbon tax, transportation (metro-bus-train) raise, WhatsApp tax, corruption, gasoline raise, insufficiency of social services, public services, etc. The real reason for the riots is 'it is not the last drop that causes the glass to over flow, it is the fact that the glass is full' and the glass is full everywhere. Therefore, all these objections are anti-systemic. People no longer believe that problems within capitalism are solvable. Of course, it is not spoken in the same clarity, but the appeal is system oriented.

  

Now, ecological struggle has been added to the equation. This is important for the potential success of innovation and struggle compared to the past. Of course, the ecological struggle must be radical anti-capitalist. Meanwhile, opportunities are better in terms of organization. For example, it is easier to implement direct democracy, which democracy cannot be any other way. Of course, this is an advantage for the other side too. Then, it is important who uses it first and how. In fact, Samir Amin has recently launched an initiative with the slogan 'We must create the internationalism of the exploited classes and the oppressed peoples'. We published a declaration on that matter at Free University. As far as I know others have published it too… It should be time to put an end to inertia. Otherwise, there is not much to be saved. Besides, apart from the communist social perspective, humanity and civilization have no future. If anyone knows a way, go on and tell us?  

 

 

  

The effect of the Kurdish movement in Turkey and the Middle East is also being discussed in a global scale. How should we evaluate the role of the Kurds about the future of societies? 

  

 

If there is anything unquestionable, it is that the most politicized people in the Middle East are the Kurds. They represent dynamism everywhere they live. Turkey and Syria, or elsewhere. But the left in Turkey has to smarten up and create a healthy common movement with the Kurdish people. There is no chance of success in Turkey by excluding the Kurds. And there is that too, the Rojava Revolution shows the way out of this current situation. It is necessary to focus on these issues. It is no longer possible for the classic central organization model and parties to work in this age. It is necessary to develop a new organizational model and this is not impossible. I expect that 2020 will be a year when opposition movements in the world will be carried to a higher level and hope will grow.